ACC – Architectural Control Committee

Architectural Control Committee

ACC applications (as of 02/07/2013 – 3:31:07 pm) provided to owners on 02/07/2013 for the first time thanks to the implementation of HB 1237, the so called ‘HOA records bill’,  making it mandatory for HOAs to disclose “Records of board or committee actions to approve or deny any requests for design or architectural approval from owners”. This is the first time such records were provided to owners.

ACC applications (as of  04/11/2013 – 2:50:55pm) provided to owners on 04/11/2013 following a request on 04/04/2013  to produce an updated list of ACC applications. We are seeking clarification as some of the applications listed in the first document provided have now been removed from the official records. See below.

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From: joelle miller <joelle@goinghigh.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 12:29 PM
Subject: Mountain Side Condos – Architectural Control Committee records
To: “Meek, William” <wmeek@sedgwick.gov>, “Meek, William” <bjm1919@aol.com>
Cc: phil@mountainmanagers.com

Mr. Meek,

Following the implementation of HB-1237, we requested a list of all applications received by the MountainSide HOA Architectural Control Committee. A list was provided to owners on 02/07/2013. On 04/04/2013, we requested an updated list to include requests received up to date. This was made available on 04/11/2013.

We would like to know why some of the ACC applications included in the original information provided on 02/07/2013 have since been removed from the official records and have been omitted in the comprehensive list provided on 04/11/2013.

Copies of both lists are available on our website for easy reference.
Thank you.

Joelle and Terry Miller

From: Meek, William <wmeek@sedgwick.gov>
Date: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 12:34 PM
Subject: RE: Mountain Side Condos – Architectural Control Committee records
To: joelle miller <joelle@goinghigh.com>, “Meek, William” <bjm1919@aol.com>
Cc: “phil@mountainmanagers.com” <phil@mountainmanagers.com>

I will  ask and get  you the answer

From: Meek, William <wmeek@sedgwick.gov>
Date: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 12:21 PM
Subject: RE: Mountain Side Condos – Architectural Control Committee records
To: joelle miller <joelle@goinghigh.com>
Cc: “phil@mountainmanagers.com” <phil@mountainmanagers.com>, “hadley@mtnmanagers.com” <hadley@mtnmanagers.com>, “susan@mountainmanagers.com” <susan@mountainmanagers.com>, “judy@mountainmanagers.com” <judy@mountainmanagers.com>, “Allen, Herb” <allenhj@msn.com>, “Burger, Art” <artburger@comcast.net>, “Cacace, Don” <dcacace@chatfieldconsulting.com>, “Gibson, E.J.” <ethangibson@hotmail.com>, “Lembke, Bob” <boblembke@unitedwaterdistrict.com>, “Meek, William” <bjm1919@aol.com>, Pete <ptp100@comcast.net>, “Ponds, Scott” <sponds@yahoo.com>, Smith <sdsmith4u@hotmail.com>

Joelle Miller,

Thank you for your note and I will try to explain as best as I can the answers to your questions.  The law that you are referring to took effect as of 1/1/13.  I haven’t had time to read this statute but I will in May when I come up for the board meeting.  But unless this statute is different than most that I’ve seen it would not require the records to be provided prior to 1/1/13.  But from what I understand from the management staff that they gave you 3 years of records for your review.  I know of 4 specific incidences and I can relate these to you.  One was requested in 1997 and it was removed to clean up the list.  Another one was moved down the list into sequential order.   One was removed because it was a duplicate and one was removed because the work did not need approval it was replacing existing.  I hope this answers your questions.

Bill meek

Mr. Meek,

After reading your response, I just have to ask the question.

Why on earth would the board withhold information from the owners of the association if the board and their manager have the information readily available?

I’ll be up front and say that in my opinion, an HOA board and their manager should not have to be required by statute to do the right and ethical thing by communicating openly, honestly and directly with the owners of the association and to provide the owners of the association with information that belongs to them.  To do otherwise just seems, well, odd.

Again, that’s just my opinion but it seems to be one that is shared by a growing number Mountain Side owners as well.

I would appreciate a direct and honest answer from you but if none is forthcoming, I understand.  Well not really but what choice do I have?
Thank you,
Terry Miller

Mr. Meek,

In follow up to my last email and in the interest of complete transparency as well as to set aside any need or concern for trying to read between the lines, I want to explain honestly why your response prompted me to reply.  These types of unusual explanations by the HOA BOD, the association attorney and/or association manager often just don’t make any sense and are commonly contradictory.  As I said, it’s just odd and seems to be  so simple to resolve any confusion by just making all of the information available.

Statutory references addressed in my previous email aside;

1.)   Other requests for replacement remain on the list therefore this explanation does not make sense in that some were arbitrarily removed but not others.

2.)    There is no reason why records would be arbitrarily removed to “clean up the list”. By anyone, on any list for any reason. There are very few requests listed there, so it makes no sense why anything would need to be “cleaned up” and raises the question of what else is being “cleaned up” or has been “cleaned up” in previous years.

3.)    One record (a request to install a bathroom which was listed as denied) was arbitrarily removed completely.  This does not fit any of the 4 explanations given in your response below.

4.)   You advised that one request was a duplicate. It was not. The file showed that one owner submitted a request to update bathrooms (not bedrooms as listed on the list). The unit was sold and the subsequent owner submitted a request to update kitchen. This was two separate owners, two separate jobs, two separate occurrences and two separate requests.

Thanks for your time,

Terry Miller

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From: Meek, William [mailto:wmeek@sedgwick.gov]
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 2:07 PM
To: Terry Miller
Cc: hadley@mtnmanagers.com; judy@mtnmanagers.com; Allen, Herb; Burger, Art; Cacace, Don; Gibson, E.J.; Lembke, Bob; Meek, William; Pete; Ponds, Scott; Smith

Subject: RE: Mountain Side Condos – Architectural Control Committee records

Terry Miller
In response to your email sent to me April 18th, 2:16 pm Your first paragraph asked why on earth we would withhold information from you which is a good question. I have tried my best to answer any questions that were sent directly to me. And from what I understand from the management company they have given you reams of information. Your second paragraph questions why a state requirement would be the only criteria for giving homeowners information. We have been asked many times by different owners for all kinds of information and to the best of our ability given it to them. There are many ways to receive the information. The best way would be to attend board meetings, visit the managers website, or send in a request as you have in the past and get supplied with the information you are looking for. I believe that one of the staff members from Managers asked you at one time if there was anything else they could get for you. Your comment was no. The staff person also said if there was anything more just let us know.

In your last paragraph you indicate you want an honest answer from me. You can rest assured that I only give honest answers. In regards to your second memo, that was sent on April 18th, 3:34 pm. Apparently the answers I gave you were not sufficient. If you could be very specific in what you are wanting to know I could try to answer that. For example, Unit A was on the list January 1st unit A is off the list April 1st. If the questions are formatted in that manner I can answer specifically what happened and when. Form my memory the only record that was purged was a 1997 record. I don’t think it is economically good sense to maintain records forever but if you can be specific in what you are wanting to know I will try my best to honestly help you. P.S. see attachment This is the last ACC report I have

Bill

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

From: Terry Miller

Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 5:19 PM

To: ‘wmeek@sedgwick.gov.didtheyreadit.com’

Cc: ‘hadley@mtnmanagers.com; ‘judy@mtnmanagers.com; ‘allenhj@msn.com; ‘artburger@comcast.net; ‘dcacace@chatfieldconsulting.com; ‘ethangibson@hotmail.com; ‘boblembke@unitedwaterdistrict.com; ‘bjm1919@aol.com; ‘ptp100@comcast.net; ‘sponds@yahoo.com; ‘sdsmith4u@hotmail.com

Subject: RE: Mountain Side Condos – Architectural Control Committee records

Bill Meek,

Thank you for your reply and commitment to answer our questions.

Maybe you’re simply unaware of the seemingly arbitrary decisions and actions taken by the BOD, or its individual members, and/or the association manager. Or maybe our perception is just wrong and can be simply and easily resolved with open communication and unfettered access to all accurate records. Again, It makes no sense that the HOA BOD would refuse to provide all available records regardless of when they were generated only because they may not be legally obligated to do so. Historical records are important for many reasons not the least of which are accountability and historical precedence.

1.) Is the HOA BOD and their manager in agreement to make all existing records?

2.) Which board members are on the Architectural Control Committee (ACC)? We have requested this before and it has not been answered.

3.) How many committees are there, what are those committees and which board members are on those committees?

4.) Which board members were present when the unit entry rule came up for a vote?

5.) Which board members voted to approve the unit entry rule change?

6.) Were the original records made available to us accurate? – See below

We were presented with two different ACC lists:

http://mountain-side.com/docs/hoa_documents/ACC/ACC-5.pdf is the first document we received. Were these original records right? If they were right, why have they been subsequently changed? There are no records between 10/1997 and 09/2010. Does it mean that the ACC didn’t receive any applications during that time?

http://mountain-side.com/docs/hoa_documents/ACC/SKMBT_C28413041114500.pdf is the second document we received. Three records have been removed from the previous list: 2 were requests for bathrooms in the loft (unit 209E (year 1997) and 352H (year 2012)) and one was a kitchen remodel (unit 179E (year2012). Why were these records removed?

As for the economic cost of record maintenance and aside from the statutory requirement, from a practical standpoint memory is cheap and keeping records in perpetuity is not uncommon, unreasonable nor is it more costly to do so. I have to do this in my business, I understand the benign challenge it represents and it’s easily and cheaply resolved. Heck, just the cost of the legal bill racked up by having Klug tell us that the association didn’t have to provide records would have probably more than covered the cost. Likewise making all current and historical HOA records in existence owned by the association (owned by us) available is not unreasonable nor burdensome. If the HOA BOD or manager needs assistance, we’ll be happy to assist in the processing of the records.

The records exist, they are available, there is no reason why they should not be provided to the people that own them. Provided to them not just because it’s the law but because it’s the right thing to. Again, responding that the HOA BOD is not providing the records because they don’t have to or responding through an attorney just seems, well Bill, it just seems odd.

Another benefit to the HOA and its BOD of having easy digital access to accurate records would be that it will allow the HOA to avoid the perception of being arbitrary and capricious in its decision making by having precedence to look back upon. Having accurate records readily available and searchable would certainly serve to alleviate that perception and would promote the side benefit of accountability by the BOD and the association manager.

Having the records readily available and searchable would also allow the HOA and its BOD to avoid future misrepresentations like using non-existent agreements with the Town of Frisco as fact when responding to legitimate requests or comments by owners, non-existent agreements with water and sewer departments as fact when responding to legitimate requests or comments by owners, stating that building plans no longer exist when they actually do exist when responding to legitimate requests or comments by owners, identifying ownership as paint-in when it’s studs-in, exaggerating costs for things like engineering studies rather than doing real research, using board members “feelings” as fact when responding to legitimate requests from owners. The BOD would actually have fast easy access to accurate information upon which they could base their comments and responses.

Further it allows owners and board members alike to determine and confirm what has or has not been approved in the past. It will also allow for a fair, consistent and reasonable system for handling owners requests and comments by providing precedence and past actions on the part of the HOA BOD as a basis for approval or disapproval of those requests. Those precedents and accountability on the part of the HOA BOD and their manager did not start on January 1, 2013, they started when the complex was built and that accurate historical data is important in order to assure a fair, reasonable non-arbitrary or capricious decision.

And finally, it imposes accountability upon those responsible for making the decisions and Bill, accountability is just good business and that is good for all of us.

Thanks again for your time,

Terry Miller

Terry Miller

                In response to your email sent to me April 18^th, 2:16 pm Your first paragraph asked why on earth we would withhold information from you which is a good question.  I have tried my best to answer any questions that were sent directly to me. And from what I understand from the management company they  have given you reams of information. Your  second paragraph questions why a state requirement would be the only criteria for giving homeowners information. We have been asked many times by different owners for all kinds of information and to the best of our ability given it to them.  There are many ways to receive the information. The best way would be to attend board meetings, visit the managers website, or send in  a  request as you have in the past and get supplied with the information you are looking for.  I believe that one of the staff members from Managers asked you at one time if there was anything else they could get for you.  Your comment was no.  The staff person also said if there was anything more just let us know.

                In your  last paragraph you indicate you want an honest answer from me.  You can rest assured that I only give honest answers.  In regards to your second memo, that was sent on April 18^th, 3:34 pm.  Apparently the answers I gave you were not sufficient. If you could be very specific in what you are wanting to know I could try to answer that.  For example, Unit A was on the list January 1^st unit A is off the list April 1^st. If the questions are formatted in that manner I can answer specifically what happened and when.  Form my memory the only record that was purged was a 1997 record.  I don’t think it is economically good sense to maintain records forever but if you can be specific in what you are wanting to know I will try my best to honestly help  you.  P.S. see attachment  This is the last ACC report I have

Bill

(NB: List #1 provided in February of 2013 was attached to his email.)

I am sorry to all I sent the wrong list this is the most current

(NB: List #2 provided in February of 2013 was attached to his email.)